How Much Does Box Office Really Matter for a Best-Picture Hopeful?

With Venom and A Star Is Born both continuing their spectacular box-office runs, it was inevitable for anything that opened against them to seem diminished in comparison. So is the $20 million earned thus far by First Man, the Neil Armstrong biopic that reunites Ryan Gosling with Damien Chazelle, a disappointment? Or just a sign that when youre releasing an awards-season movie for grown-ups, its all about the long game?

On this weeks Little Gold Men podcast, Richard Lawson, Katey Rich, and Joanna Robinson discuss First Mans fate, the festival run of If Beale Street Could Talk, the Critics Choice Documentary Award nominees, and this weeks new release Can You Ever Forgive Me? K. Austin Collins also stops by for a quick discussion of Mid90s, which is Jonah Hills directorial debut and also A24s only major fall release. Can it follow in the footsteps of Lady Bird and Moonlight? Will it even try?

The episode also includes Mike Hogans interview with Jason Reitman, the director of two films this year: Tully, which reunites him with Young Adults writer Diablo Cody and star Charlize Theron, and the upcoming The Front Runner, a very Robert Altman-inspired recounting of Senator Gary Harts ultimately doomed presidential campaign. Reitman was inspired to cast Hugh Jackman in the role after seeing his performance in Logan, and found that all of the rumors in Hollywood about Jackman were true. “The other thing hes known for besides being overwhelmingly decent is for being about as hard-working an actor as there is. Whether hes learning choreography or how to sing or how to do a fight scene, researching the background of a character. His line to me was, I never want to feel like I couldve done more. That proved to be very true.”

You can read the full transcript of the Jason Reitman interview below, as well as the episode. Find Little Gold Men on Apple Podcasts, where you can leave a rating and a review and keep the awards season conversation going.

Vanity Fair: So Im thrilled to be here with Jason Reitman, the director of two amazing films this year, The Front Runner and Tully. I wanted to start by talking to you about The Front Runner, which I saw in Telluride, where it got a great reception. You said this film is like a mirror, and it mirrors how people are thinking about politics in general. How did you approach it? What was your thought process in making a film like that?

Jason Reitman: Well, first off, thank you for that introduction. Thats absolutely lovely. Now Im even more pleased to be on your podcast. My introduction to the Gary Hart story really came through a podcast. It was Radio Lab, and they did a piece on his story and the scandal. I couldnt quite believe it. I couldnt believe that there was this moment when the presumed next president of our country wound up in an alleyway in the middle of the night with these reporters, and no one knew what to do, because no one had ever been in their shoes before. It played out like a movie. Like a film noir, as a thriller. When I started bringing up this story to other people, I found that everyones reaction was different. Some people heroized Hart, some people heroized the journalist. There really was a dozen different points of view or ways to interpret how this moment, this one-week story put us on a trajectory towards 2018. I just knew that I wanted to make a movie, but it wasnt really until I really started sharing the story with my friends and my collaborators in movie-making that I realized, oh we need to take this multi-directional approach. There needs to be 20 main characters because everyones going to have a different way in. I suppose thats why I say mirror, because no two people watch the same movie. Theres certain films where the audience has the same exact experience and thats the joy of it, right? This collective experience of a group of strangers that have never met before. What I found with The Front Runner and with the story, in general, is that you watch it with the person sitting next to you and your experiences are completely different. It starts real conversation.

Well Ill tell you what my experience was, I came out of there saying that was a monster movie and the monster is the tabloidization of politics. No one in the movie wants it but everyone, just by doing what they have to do, is helping to create it. That was my takeaway, this is the inception of something that has taken over our society.

Reitman: Yeah, certainly I see that side of it. Im not a big fan of tabloid journalism, but we have to balance that with our curiosity, which is innate. I mean theres a reason why tabloids are successful, both in their former magazine form and then also in their current Internet form. Were curious people, we want to know. We want to know who these candidates are as human beings and we want to know about their flaws. We dont quite know how to govern ourselves. We dont know where that line is, and of course, that line is different for every person.

I liked that you insisted on incorporating the perspective of, I think its one of the female journalists in the film, where theres a proto #MeToo thing here. If this is this guys way of behaving, we have a right to know that. I was glad that it wasnt just, oh isnt it sad that this great man was taken down? That there was a lot of nuance to it.

Reitman: No, and look, thats why Hart kind of served as an interesting test case. He was smart, cerebral, thoughtful, had great ideas and was a charismatic candidate. But he was flawed and made real human mistakes that stand out. For that reason, people come away two ways on him. I found that, my producer Helen Estabrook who Ive been working with since Up in the Air, who I have conversations about gender all the time with and really is the reason where I think in Up in the Air the conversations between George [Clooney] and Vera [Farmiga], or George and Anna [Kendrick] have the weight that they do is because of my conversions with Helen. Our conversations on this movie were amped up tenfold and very often that kind of point of view, the point of view of Ann Devroy at The Washington Post who serves as the voice in the paper saying, this matters, is really important.

What was the working relationship like with Matt Bai and Jay Carson? Because they come right out of this politics world, right? Where Matt was a reporter and Jay was a political operative. How did you guys all work together?

Reitman: It was really fun for me because, you know, Im not a student of history. Im a student of movies. I love movies, Im a film director. When you make a political movie it can give off the impression as though somehow, you know, you have a degree of history, and thats just not the case. Working with someone who was a journalist for The New York Times magazine and covered five presidential elections and working with a political operative who is the press secretary for Hillary Clinton, Howard Dean, and senators who remain in Congress, the stories are rich, fascinating, and funny. As writers, they are this resource where we are trying to create a world that feels messy and real and carries the kind of dialogue that you would hear if you just were dropped in the midst of a campaign or on the floor of a newspaper. Here, we have two people with all this experience who originally were on either side of the battlefield really, I mean these are two people in a fight to control the narrative when they were working in that world. To be suddenly in a room where they are sharing all these intimate stories so that the movie can come to life, its just a gift and it makes me feel like a passenger in the car.

Obviously, you mentioned there are a lot of main characters, but obviously, the biggest one is Gary Hart, played by Hugh Jackman. Did you have to persuade him to do this role? Hes playing against type in certain ways, right? On the one hand, Hart has to be charismatic and likable which is what we all associate with Hugh Jackman. On the other hand, hes kind of this curmudgeonly guy who, in some ways, is in denial through a lot of this movie and is not always behaving that well.

Reitman: Right. Im not sure Hugh had this experience. I had this experience when I saw Logan where all of a sudden, a new side of Hugh Jackman opened up to me. I knew he was a movie star, I knew he was funny and charismatic and obviously an amazing action star, but there was this moment in watching Logan where, its hard to explain, but he just kind of grew up into a new chapter of his career. It was such a nuance heartbreaking performance, particularly for a superhero character to be that nuanced and thoughtfully approached. I immediately thought of the Gary Hart role, frankly, and reached out to him. He really dug the script and we had breakfast and we started talking about how we liked to make movies and found ourselves to be very aligned in how we approach the work. The other thing hes known for besides being overwhelmingly decent is for being about as hard-working an actor as there is. Whether hes learning choreography or how to sing or how to do a fight scene, researching the background of a character. His line to me was, I never want to feel like I couldve done more. That proved to be very true.

Then you had Vera Farmiga, who is rejoining you after you guys collaborated together on Up in the Air?

Reitman: Yeah, its interesting, right? Because the two roles are bookends to each other. She plays, between Up in the Air and The Front Runner, Vera Farmiga plays either side of an affair. Look, there is kind of a standard issue way of how to play the person whos being cheated upon and that is to become shrill and angry. Theres kind of a simplicity to that. Vera doesnt do simple. Everything she does is complicated and nuanced. Her strength comes through quietly. Shes a force to be reckoned with. I mean she was in Up in the Air and she was on this film as well, shes intimidating. Its exciting to give Hugh an actor who can really go toe-to-toe with him the way that she does and the way that J.K. Simmons does.

You mentioned J.K. Simmons, obviously you guys worked together on Juno way back in the day and several other times.

Reitman: Yeah, this is actually our ninth movie together, if you can believe it.

Didnt you executive produce Whiplash as well?

Reitman: Yeah, Whiplash and Jennifers Body. Our first movie, of course, was Thank You for Smoking together. Where he played Nick Naylors boss. Then hes in Up in the Air. In Young Adult, he was Maviss boss. The only one hes not in is Tully, and I still regret it. But I just literally, I could not find a role for him.

So youre reading scripts thinking, all right where is the J.K. role? Or writing, right? Does it just come to you?

Reitman: There honestly is a part of me that is always going, O.K. but what is J.K. going to play? Because I dont think its a film of mine if hes not in it. I think in his voice, and I also think hes just one of the greatest actors alive, hands down. So I feel very lucky that I get to work with him.

You said you were a student of movie history. This film has been compared, I think on the Toronto Film Festival landing page to Robert Altman. Were you thinking about Robert Altman and The Player when you were making it? What are the political films that have inspired you?

Reitman: When you think about Altman you think about these language master shots that are not focused on any given character but rather focused on the scene at large, the overlapping way in which real human interaction happens. We definitely looked at that. During prep we watched Nashville and wed play and pause and talk about what made it effective. The North Star for this film though was Michael Ritchies, The Candidate. Im a big Michael Ritchie fan. I think that trio of films he did at the top of his career, Downhill Racer, The Candidate, and Smile are one of the greatest starts to a career that I can think of. We watched it, the writers and I, Matt, Jay and I, and immediately recognized the tone and style of what we wanted to achieve on this film.

So the three of you sat down, watched it and said, “All right, lets get to work”?

Reitman: Thats the funny thing about telling a movie about real events. This is the first time Ive done that. Ive never made a movie about anything real, let alone people that were still alive. So when you do a movie about real events, the plot already exists. You dont have to figure out what happens. What happened, happened. So now the question is, how are you telling this and why are you telling this? When we watched The Candidate, the “how” became very clear.

Have you talked to Gary Hart about this movie? Has he seen it?

Reitman: I met him beforehand. We were in contact during the movie, and he has seen the film.

Were you scared showing it to him?

Reitman: Oh, yeah. I mean thats the scariest. Showing the movie to Donna Rice and to Gary and his campaign staff and to Tom Fiedler . . . these are the scariest screenings Ive ever had. Scarier than showing my first movie to my dad my first time.

Itd be great if you had one screening with all of them in there.

Reitman: Oh god, yeah, on a boat. But Gary, as the others, felt that the movie had empathy for him and treated him with respect. The kind of decency that I think Gary Hart has been looking for. Donna Rice has been looking for in the 30 years since this all happened. These are people who were private people, who wound up in a very public story and received no empathy in the retelling of their story. Their story was kind of told as a joke and Hart went from being the presumed next president to one week later leaving politics forever. So, hes a thoughtful person and he was hoping for a thoughtful approach. I think he recognized that we at least attempted to do that.

Do you follow politics these days a lot? Were you trying to comment on the current state of things with this film?

Reitman: Who doesnt follow politics these days? . . . Its what we talk about each day. Its impossible to be alive today and not think about it. Funny enough, we wrote this movie in 2015. So the movie is written prior to the presidential election. Its written prior to the Harvey Weinstein revelations and the #MeToo movement, and then as we were making this movie the world shifted in our fate. Its been relevant but now . . . I could deal with less relevancy, honestly.

I can imagine. Speaking of relevancy, have you seen this story, I think Matt Bai was involved in it, that theres now evidence that Gary Hart mightve been set up by Lee Atwater?

Reitman: Yeah, Ive read the story. Its a fascinating read. Obviously, this is a deathbed confession, and hard to know the complete accuracy of it. But its interesting. Most interesting because you realize it really gets to this idea how one moment can change the trajectory of a country. Whether or not youre a fan of Gary Hart, without him in the race the Democrats were not able to field a suitable candidate in time. Instead, George Bush became president. We have the first Iraq war. Because of his presidency, his son eventually becomes president. Dick Cheney becomes a character in this nations history. A lot of things change.

Yeah, its a fascinating microcosm of that relationship between policy and personality that has just reached, really, insane levels in the current state of things. But has been, obviously always affected politics, but really in the last 30 years, its been a huge thing.

Reitman: I mean, thats the thing. You may be a fan of the two Bush presidencies and you may continue to think that it was a good idea that we went into Iraq. But its impossible to be alive in 2018 and not think the system is broken in one way or another. No matter where you land politically, something is not quite right. Were all trying to fix it. One of the ideas at the core of this is where the politics meets personal, and who these people are and how much we know about them. Where shame comes into be a factor. We have a system in which people who experience shame drop out of the race. The way Al Franken did and the people who dont experience shame remain and thrive. So we have a system that favors the shameless.

Somebody on Twitter the other day said “shamelessness is the superpower,” and I think we all know what theyre thinking of. But thats fascinating. Youve gotten to that in this film. I also want to talk about Tully because its a very different film. Its amazing for you to have both of these in the same year continuing your collaboration with Diablo Cody and with Charlize Theron. Do you see a through-line between Juno, Young Adult, and Tully, the three films youve done with Diablo?

Reitman: I do. I was really fortunate because 10 or 12 years ago, I met Diablo Cody. What I didnt know at the time was that it was the beginning of a lifelong storytelling relationship. Its kind of a marriage. Were around the same age and were growing up together. What Ive noticed after the fact is that each one of these films represents where she and I are in our own trajectory. What it is like to be leaving your twenties and having a sense of the loss of innocence. What it is to finally grow up in Juno, and then in Young Adult which is this thoughtful approach to never feeling like you are an actual grown-up. Tully speaks to the idea of postpartum depression a lot, but on a larger scale is about the moment that you say goodbye to your younger self. So, I see it as this trajectory of Diablo and I are growing up and trying to understand where we are in our own timelines. I hope that continues with all of the films we get to make together.

What about Charlize? I mean, my experience of interviewing a lot of people, Charlize is one of the smartest actors around whos like a real person. Not that other actors are not smart or real people, but she seems like shes scoring very high on those charts.

Reitman: Charlize is exceptionally smart. More importantly, shes exceptionally funny and kind of killed me with a joke upon first meeting.

What was the joke?

Reitman: I cant, its too dark. Its sincerely too dark a joke. But she just slayed me and I fell for her right there and then. As a director, every once and a while you just meet an actor that you have perfect chemistry with, and you know you just want to make movies with for the rest of your life. Charlize is one of them. Hugh, frankly, is another. We just kind of see eye-to-eye on how we want to make movies and why we want to make movies. Charlize is, as is Hugh, two smart people who are exceptional talents, decent to the people around them, and are both trying to make the world a better place. They both, you know, blaze a path that we all can follow in. They each make me want to be a better person.

You mentioned being aligned on why you want to make movies, has your reason for wanting to make movies changed in the 10 years since you did Juno? Or the 13 years since you did Thank You for Smoking?

Reitman: Thats a great question. One that Im always trying to figure out for myself. I certainly, when I started making movies, just wanted to get across the finish line. Just get the movie done somehow and get it in front of an audience. What shifted over time is Ive just calmed down a little and worried a little bit less, and learned to really enjoy the gift that is to be able to make movies. To be on set with such smart storytellers both in front of the camera and behind it. Collaborators that Ive been working with so long now that theyve become close friends. I get to watch them grow as storytellers. A great example is Steve Morrow, who is the production sound mixer on Front Runner, which I had a really complicated soundtrack in. I got 20 actors, all with mics, and hes pointing your ears to who you should be listening to. Hes someone Ive worked with since Thank You for Smoking, as also did Little Miss Sunshine. More recently, he did La La Land. He did A Star Is Born. Hes just doing the best work of his life and hes a good friend and I get to watch him on that trajectory and I get to story tell with him. Or Eric Steelberg, my cinematographer who I've known since I was a teenager. The idea that I got to meet these people in my life and continue to make movies with them and just like with Diablo we grow together is surreal. I think right now its the reason I make movies.

Your father, Ivan Reitman, directed Meatballs, Stripes, and Ghostbusters, which is enough for any person to be able to say. Did you grow up on sets? Did you grow up with Bill Murray pranking you and stuff?

Reitman: I was 11 days old on the set of Animal House. That clearly had a profound impact. Yeah, Ive been on all these sets. I did grow up on sets. I had my first production assistant job when I was 13 on Kindergarten Cop. I also had my first kiss on-screen in Kindergarten Cop.

Oh, wow.

Reitman: My childhood was kind of woven throughout my fathers movies. Frankly, when I think about my childhood, I can kind of time things out to what movie was being shot at the time more than what grade I was in. It was just an incredible way to grow up. Its like growing up in the circus. Youre with all these fascinating people who every morning, drive the trucks in. Its like they put up the tent and they tell a story. Filmmaking is, every day you get to do something no one has ever done before. No matter what, youre showing up at a place and youre going to film it in a way that presumably no ones filmed it before. Youre figuring out something new. Theres a thrill to that, that I cant imagine being measured up to in any other business. The way that every day is a surprise. It was a really exciting way to grow up.

Are there things about your dad that didnt make sense when you were a little kid and now that youre a director doing the same kind of work, youre like, oh now I understand?

Reitman: I mean Im not sure I can come up with an example right off the top of my head. But look, directing is hard. Its just the truth. It is a lot of pressure. It is the pressure to tell the story, its the pressure to get it done on time and on a budget and youre responsible for all these people who showed up for work who are looking to you to give them guidance, to give them purpose. All these people who show up to make a movie, whether youre driving the trucks or operating the camera or making the food, youre all sacrificing something. They all have families, they all have lives, and theyre sacrificing time with their kids, at their homes with their spouses and their partners to go tell some story that you think was so important to tell. Its up to you do to do something good enough that makes that sacrifice worthwhile. Not to mention, the money that is being spent and the people who will eventually buy a ticket and give up a couple hours of their life just to listen to whatever you thought was important enough for them to watch. So theres this pressure that comes with it. I probably didnt think about that when I was a kid. I just thought, oh this is so cool to be on a movie set. Id see him get stressed out and I thought, eh, O.K. Now, I get it. Im a dad and I make movies and its a tricky balance.

Has he given you any good advice? Is there one thing youve learned from him?

Reitman: Oh my god, I mean, I could honestly write a very long book on all the advice hes given me. For the most part, its all been good. Frankly, any time I meet a young director or an actor whos thinking about directing and they want to grab a bite and hear whatever I have to offer, inevitably 90 percent of what I say begins with, “Heres a story my dad told me.”

Its been 10 years since you went to the Oscars as a nominated director for Juno. Was that your first time at the Oscars? What do you remember about that night?

Reitman: Its a blur now, frankly. But it was one of the great moments of my life. I mean, I remember the moment I was nominated for the first time. I really did not think it was going to happen. I had woken up at five in the morning or whatever it was to watch Diablo get nominated, which at that point was kind of a certainty. With the hope that Ellen Page would get nominated and the hope that the movie might get a best-picture nomination. Thered been enough talk about it that it seemed like, oh this might just happen. But no one, including myself, thought that I would be nominated and when it did I just kind of froze. I just couldnt believe it. The first person to call me was my father. He was crying. He could barely finish a sentence, he was trying to tell me that he was just so proud of me. Its one of the great moments of my life.

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